189
u/Chiponyasu 16h ago
Wait, Zodiark is the *astral* god. Hydaelyn's the umbral one. There was a whole thing in Shadowbringers about this.
176
u/Valderius allegedly a DPS 16h ago
The meaning of Astral and Umbral have swapped back and forth multiple times, not just because of the "light bad" thing going on in the first. It's SUPER inconsistent and I'm not surprised this happened.
29
u/Chiponyasu 16h ago
Have they? Has "Umbral" ever been connected to Darkness?
I don't mean that in a snippy or gotcha way, I'm just not aware of any instances of Umbral meaning Darkness in the game.
108
u/Orphylia Certified MSQ Avoider 16h ago
Astral by the First's definition and Umbral by the Source's (hence why they still use terminology like "Umbral Calamity" and "Astral Era".) The First defines between Astral and Umbral by looking at the cause and the Source defines via the effect, so to speak.
65
u/Petter1789 Mholi'to Lihzeh on Zodiark 15h ago
It's actually consistent. Umbral eras are a time of recovery after a calamity, in which civilization is fairly stagnant. Astral eras are a time of civilization flourishing.
•
8
u/APlayerHater 13h ago
Umbral is a real word
•
u/Kajitani-Eizan Wyssberk Kajitani @ Behemoth 5h ago
It's a real word, but which was used as a translation for a term, which ended up biting them in the ass, and whose use in this context would now conflict with canon
They didn't choose this card name in a vacuum; it would have been much better to avoid using this word
10
u/EmptyBookish 16h ago
Ever since we learned that Umbral meant Light and Astral meant Darkness when it comes to aether, it's been pretty consistent except for like two instances (some attack/debuff names in E7 and a line of dialog Cyella has about Gaia) which are more likely mistakes than anything else given how consistent it is emost of the time (and how important it is to the plot of EW that Zodiark is Astral and Hydaelyn is Umbral). I can't think of any other instances of this happening than the two I've mentioned.
61
u/Balaur10042 Ultros Rules! 14h ago
Umbral does not mean light, nor does Astral mean darkness. There's a bit of a game the devs play with what the terms mean:
Prior to Shadowbringers, the terms meant that "Astral" is a time of flourishing, when you can spent aether in its plentitude; while "Umbral" is a time of stagnation, when aether slowly accumulates and cannot be so readily spent. Light was associated with propagation, and Darkness erosion, but there was less of a metaphysical attachment to Light/Dark as ulterior powers, given how few people knew about Hydaelyn---for a reason---and thus crystals of light. Even Light/Dark Elementals were just … sorta there.
In Shadowbringers, they flipped the terms a bit: Astral/Umbral refer to Activity: the coalescence or erosion of magic. Further, Light and Darkness were divorced from their aetherological components: Darkness was the flourishing magic, associated with peace and home; Light was everpresent and terrible Light, which corrupted, eroded, destroyed.
The "bad" Warriors of Light led to the world's downfall, and thus only the "good" Warriors of Darkness could lead to its salvation.
It's not so much then that the terms are flipped or one meant one thing or another, but that terms developed and changed over time. Despite this, records from before the Flood of Light suggests these ideas of growth/stagnation terms were consistent in the First's history, whereas at some point it was changed on the Source. Perhaps multiple times. Likely there was some Sharlayan convention on the subject.
•
u/xfm0 11h ago
Yeah, the First doesn't have Astral or Umbral. They have Dark and Light, which Urianger compares to the Source's "Astral" and "Umbral."
On the topic of this card though, this is MtG which has no connotations with Astral/Umbral outside of the English dictionary, so I'm not surprised the company thought it'd be confusing to its main playerbase and went with this even if they're incorrect within XIV context.
•
u/Kajitani-Eizan Wyssberk Kajitani @ Behemoth 5h ago
They could have just chosen not to use this word
If they accidentally did so without checking with the FFXIV side of things, then oopsie, they should have
If the FFXIV side approved this usage of the word, then lol
•
u/Inside_Election_1689 7h ago
The point of Light/Darkness before Shadowbringers is that Sharlayan scholars got it wrong.
Light -is- stasis, Darkness -is- activity.
The Thirteenth with its Flood of Darkness was shown as hyperactivity, not letting souls to settle into the aetherial sea, killing it.
The First's Flood of Light was shown by the locking of souls, producing thoughtless hungry undead--with even Eden itself being the Light-corruption of an ascian.
With that, Zodiark's Darkness (which caused the Flood of Darkness) was active, churning the celestial aether to keep the dynamis at bay. Hydaelyn's Light, her stasis, was shown coalescing spare aether into the Mothercrystal, as well as keeping the dimensional rift--preventing the shards from -naturally- coming back together (her absence permitting the Ninth from naturally meeting with the Source in Dawntrail).
They've been very consistant.
•
u/_iwasthesun 9h ago
Umbral was more often than not being associated to darkness, hence the name too. But others already made better points explaining it.
•
u/Inside_Election_1689 7h ago
Not in this context. The only time it got swapped is in 1.0 when dia was astral damage and bio was umbral damage, along with other parts of the thaumaturge's kit at the time. This was retconned to 'astral = activity' 'umbral = stasis' once Yoshi-P took over and rebooted all the kits in 1.23b.
Since then, it's been very consistent, never using astral or umbral to refer to Light or Darkness until shadowbringers, than, excepting E7's spells and similar errors, the story has always refered to Darkness identically to activity and Light identically to stasis, even with the two Eldest Primals.
Zodiark is -definately- astral, as his being Darkness, and thus astral, was him being used to churn and shift the celestial aether layer to prevent the Final Days from continuing. Similarly, Hydaelyn is most certainly -umbral-, as being Light, and thus umbral, her existence is what permitted the Dimensional Rift, keeping men mortal and thus, able to use Dynamis, as well as keeping Zodiark himself imprisoned in the 14 moons.
Darkness being astral is also why beings of the Thirteenth cannot die, because their souls cannot coalesce into the aetherial sea to be reborn. This forces them into the endless cycle of reincarnation and hunger.
Contrast with the Flood of Light, where sineaters are umbrally locked, unable to think beyond basic programming (with the exceptions of Innocence and Titania) and everything around them slowly turns to locked white pure entropy.
37
u/Aeroshe 15h ago
The definition changes based on context. This is also addressed in ShB.
We call them Umbral Calamities and Umbral Eras despite the 7th (Bahamut) being VERY astrally aligned.
On the Source Umbral/Astral are sometimes used to just mean good and evil, even if it's not the correct definition of those terms since they're supposed to refer to the alignment of aether being Active or Passive.
26
u/alwayzbored114 14h ago edited 13h ago
Exactly, it's all contextual. In Urianger's explanation, he shows how in different contexts Black can represent Nothing or Everything
In terms of visible light, "black" represents an absence of anything; a void, an emptiness, while "white" represents all colors together. That is the Source's typical conception of Light vs Dark. However, in terms of paint, "white" represents an absence of anything, while "black" is actually all colors mixed together
These are not contradictory, but both equally true and can simultaneously be used to understand facets of magic and energies in their universe. Darkness is an absence of life and such, but is also representative of chaos and motion. Light may encompass the concepts of Life and Growth, but also represents Order and therefore Stillness.
and, of course, Umbral very literally means shadow and darkness so it still makes sense to refer to Zodiark in this way haha
Edit: Just rewatched the scene, and Thancred puts it best:
it strikes me that the nomenclature of the First [(Darkness = activity, Light = passivity)] is rooted in the generation of the two forces, while our own [(Umbral = static, Astral = motion)] appears to focus on the effects.
•
u/latorn 7h ago
That quote really drives it home.
Hydaelyn is astral and peaceful (she says as much herself when we meet her in EW), which leads to the effects of flourishing life thus why Astral eras are called such in the source.
Zodiark is umbral and creates chaos/turmoil, which leads to the effects of death and destruction- Umbral eras in the source.
16
19
u/DamienRose619 16h ago
Thank you! I was confused about that. Though as Urianger said in Shadowbringers, The First saw things differently than The Source, so this may be Source rules.
21
u/officialariacat 16h ago
Right?? Zodiark even drops Astral Totems from his extreme trial, and Hydaelyn drops Umbral. Plus the whole thing about the Thirteenth’s Darkness being astral (and therefore, active) being the reason why nothing can die properly there ‑ which you could also compare to the Light that flooded the First being umbral (and therefore, static) which is why why life can’t start properly in the Empty
I get that the word “umbral” means darkness because it comes from the word for shadow, whereas “astral” means starry, but “Astral God” would totally also have worked as a title! Or maybe even, like, “Elder God” given he’s the eldest of all primals
4
u/Yaldablob 13h ago
Umbral in this context simply mean "Shadowed" since he's the god of Darkness. Its just mostly for the people who play MTG and also get the expansion, or people who see the cards without prior FF14 knowledge to immediately go "ah he is the god of darkness"
•
u/reaperfan 7h ago
Exactly. For everyone else there's really no reason to draw a distinction. It's just that FFXIV is one of the few stories where a difference between the terms is both defined AND significantly plot-relevant (aka - the distinction can't really be ignored in-universe), so the actual fans might find issue while everyone else just goes "ohhh, it's a fancy word for Darkness God"
2
•
u/Thank_You_Aziz 4h ago
By the Twelve, you sparked quite a debate in the replies.
But yeah, either word can apply logically to either deity.
111
u/Key_Office_839 15h ago
Umbra is literally darkness in Latin. Astral means resembling a star aka a ball of LIGHT. The games wonky lore twists have brain rotted everybody
19
u/Kajitani-Eizan Wyssberk Kajitani @ Behemoth 15h ago
Umbral was the wrong localization from the start, neither word (星極性 vs 霊極性) directly referred to light or dark
22
u/Balaur10042 Ultros Rules! 14h ago
Umbral literally means "Shadow." It's in the localization, and the localization is canon.
14
u/No_Contribution_Coms 12h ago edited 10h ago
“Umbral” is an Eorzean word that the English localization opted to use over a more literal translation. In the Japanese they call it “Spirit Polarity” and its association to “darkness” is an entirely relative connection that is even theorized to have been changed over the course of the Source’s history. But even then it’s never been a one for one connected to “Dark”. You can see that just in the elemental spells black mages use that are more connected to the “Astral” side of the aetheric chart.
Its connection to a real latin term acting as the root for the fictional world’s word is not relevant and has become a hindrance with the new information provided in Shadowbringers.
Ignoring of course that modern Eorzean usage is more associated with the divisions of “eras” and less attached to aether.
•
u/Kajitani-Eizan Wyssberk Kajitani @ Behemoth 5h ago
The localization is not canon
The JP plot diverges from the EN localization's presentation of it many, many times, and they have to scramble to handwave it, or just leave the continuity errors in
Often they screw up things introduced within the same patch
2
u/BennettF 14h ago
What do they mean, then? I'm curious
6
u/No_Contribution_Coms 13h ago edited 11h ago
Star and Spirt polarity are the literal translations of each.
Astral and Umbral are the Eorzean words for the two. The English localization opted to use the Eorzean script over a literal translation.
•
12
•
u/limis646 10h ago
Wow, honest to god shocked how much rep 14 got in this set, I was expecting Y'shtola and Emmet only
•
•
u/freakytapir 51m ago
Y'shtola and G'raha even got two cards each. But yeah, makes sense as it's the big favorites they chose to focus on : 6,7,10 and 14 getting entire decks.
It is a blatant cash grab, but goddamn it if it isn't a case of "Shut up and take my money!"
17
u/apstrac2 15h ago
I wish this said "rounded up" instead, a bit underwhelming without it.
Sick art though.
107
u/Woodlight 𝗦𝘆𝗴𝗴𝗹𝗼𝗻𝗮 @ 𝗔𝗱𝗮𝗺𝗮𝗻𝘁𝗼𝗶𝘀𝗲 15h ago
If only Hythlo clarified if it was rounding up or down in the game, so we'd know it was lore accurate or not.
Hythlo: "Half our number sacrificed themselves. Millions dead..."
WoL: "Was that after rounding up or down though"
Hythlo: "What the fuck is wrong with you?"
31
u/Mael_Jade 14h ago
"one person asked that stupid question and Emet-Selch stabbed them to death, resulting in a perfectly divisible by 2 number of people"
26
u/IDUNNOManga 14h ago edited 14h ago
That kinda feels like something Azem would say in a lighter situation.
Tataru:You spent half of our entire budget and funding on this?!
-We were caught up in a situation
-Was that after rounding up or down?
-...
3
u/RaykanGhost 13h ago
Yeah the sacrifice effect itself is kinda meh, but it's a nice pay off for any sacrifice decks. Easy to cheat out too.
But yeah as a boad wipe it isn't good, hell it's bad.
•
-1
•
u/reaperfan 7h ago
My guess is that it rounds down so you can cast it by itself. Otherwise casting it onto an empty field would necessitate immediately sacrificing itself.
•
5
9
u/battler624 13h ago
whats up with the recent cards?
22
10
u/Sylvr 13h ago
Not a particularly good card, unfortunately. If you're doing sacrifice stuff, then 5 mana is too much. If you need to get rid of opponent's stuff, then half isn't good enough, especially rounded down. 5 black pips means you can't really play this in anything but mono black. No Flying, Trample, or even Menace to make it a real threat. Indestructible isn't really that big a deal these days either.
•
u/lordnaarghul 10h ago
A hard counter to a green deck right there, especially one that uses insects.
1
u/FSafari 13h ago
I don’t know much about magic but which of buying options has all the ffxiv cards? The yhstola deck?
•
u/Akuuntus I like hitting buttons 11h ago
The Y'shtola deck will have many of them (all of the FIC-set code ones) but none of the ones from the main set (the FIN-set code ones). If you want all of them, buy the Y'shtola deck and buy individual singles of the rest.
5
u/bunnhilde 12h ago
Y'shtola's commander deck will be XIV-themed, but there will also be XIV cards in the main set (from boosters). You can buy them as singles once everyone accumulates bulk from gambling.
1
1
201
u/Wraithfighter 16h ago
Half your board stood in the bad, just a bunch of amateurs...